http://enemiesofthepeople.info/eopvsirius.html

I, myself, would love to see the reaction to that article. It does get very “frothing-at-the-mouth” at the end — the “All of them have at least one thing in common — they’re human; and humans are idiots.” comment just makes my head shake in shame– but nonetheless, the writer does bring up some much more valid points than I felt you had, Mr. Sirius. And backed up with links and annotations.

First, “al Queda”:

Motive: Because “they hate our freedom”. Okaaaaay, that’s a little vague, but I suppose it’s within the realm of possibility.

Means: Ordinarily, the answer would be no. Unless they had insider knowledge, there isn’t any way they would have known there were multiple classified wargames occuring on the morning of 9/11 that involved hikacked airliners. They also would not have known that only a handful of military warplanes were guarding the entire east coast of the U.S.. In addition, the alleged hijackers weren’t qualified to fly passenger jumbo jets, they wouldn’t have been able to facilitate the removal of evidence from the WTC site, etc. etc. etc.

Did they benefit from the crime? It would seem the answer is no. Their haven in Afghanistan has been disrupted, many of their leaders have been captured or killed, their accounts have been frozen, America is still standing, and the rest of them are being hunted around the world.

Now, the NeoCons:

Motive? You bet. It’s all spelled out rather clearly in the Project For A New American Century: Take advantage of a “new Pearl Harbor” to launch wars of aggression in the Middle East.

Means? Yep. Members of PNAC were in several key positions of power in the White House and the Pentagon in the 9 months leading up to 9/11. None of them have ever been reprimanded for the “intelligence failure” that allegedly occured that day.

Did they benefit? Absolutely. They got their pre-planned wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and now they’re beating the drums to attack Iran. They also got their “Patriot Act” and other curtailments of civil liberties. They got their “Department of Homeland Security”. None of these would have been possible without 9/11.

We have a measure of government competence, and we have a measure of their willingness to fake attacks on the public in the name of nationalism, empire, or profit of the war machine. Consider Operation Northwoods, the goading of the Japanese into attacking Pearl Harbor, or the Gulf of Tonkin.

We also have a measure of the “terrorist’s” competence. They were terrible pilots, as per their Flight School instructors. Even their willingness to die for their cause is in doubt; if they were devout enough Muslims to die, they should have been devout enough to refrain from booze and strip clubs.

If a faction within the US government, such as the Neo-Cons (read PNAC sometime for motive), wanted to pull their own version of Operation Northwoods to get the public behind the invasion of Afghanistan (and later Iraq), how would they do it? They’d gather their pawns (Al Queda) and put them through the motions of prepping for the attack. They’d send them to American flight schools, where the paper trail would record their “training.” The patsies would be protected from investigation, and coddled through airport security. The date of the attack is matched on a day with terrorist games, to maximize confusion and increase the likelihood of success. The planes are taken over and sent into their targets. Who was at the controls? Not the unskilled patsies. This was accomplished with either incredibly skilled, unaccounted for, suicidal pilots, or via the Global Hawk remote control system.

The Towers were brought down with explosives. This was done to guarantee a greater degree of damage and loss of life. Without a serious “attack,”? the cause for expansionist war is missing. Show an example where a steel-frame skyscraper has collapsed into its own footprint, at near free-fall speeds, without demolition. There is no such example. However, these types of buildings have been entirely gutted by fire, burning all the way down to the frame – without collapse.

Flight 93’s debris came down over an area of 6 miles. This is in accordance with a mid-flight explosion. Either those in control of the plane set off an on-board bomb, or the plane was shot down. If the plane was shot down (presumably, by responding military aircraft), the White House wouldn’t lose anything by admitting this – it would have been a legitimate act of defense. An on-board bomb makes far more sense, whether or not the plane was controlled in the cockpit or via remote. On-site “terrorists,”? in danger of losing the plane, have motive to take it down. So, too, would “remote handlers,” afraid of the passengers discovering no pilot, and communicating this to others.

Which is more far-fetched?

Unskilled, lapsing Muslim terrorists, blithely waltzing through airport security unhindered? Who coincidently picked the same day for their attack that the government had scheduled similar training scenarios? Terrible pilots pulling off impressive natigation and maneuvers, without outside guidance? The unprecedented, neat collapse of 3 skyscrapers due to aircraft impact and fire, when 1 of the buildings was struck by no aircraft? Flight 93’s debris landing up to 6 miles away from a nosedive crash?

Or a government willing to lie to its own people (check), to start was of aggression (check), and even kill its own citizens (check)? The existence of military technology to remote control aircraft (check). Building collapses in accordance with controlled demolitions (check)?

Stranger and stranger, indeed.

just seems like a big mess to me

May I take this opportunity of wishing you all success with your new site

David

But fling!, just blowing up the WTC with explosives does fit the Muslim terrorist profile, because they tried to do just that in 1993, remember?

hey, this is a fun thought experiment. continuing…

let’s subtract the “controlled demolition” part of the insider timeline. in that case, i’m not sure it WOULD be easier to stage a missile attack. where would the missile be fired from? how would it reach its point of launch undetected? is a missile really gonna bring down the WTC? (i’m not convinced the buildings falling were part of evil-Cheney’s plan, to be honest.)

just crashing a couple of planes filled with people into symbolic buildings is pretty simple and straightforward, especially for someone in Cheney’s position who can, say, have his pax-Americana military brethren be sure to hold jetliner hijacking wargames the same day, give stand down orders regarding real hijacked planes, etc.

and away we go!

because! they had to frame it so it fits the profile of Middle Eastern militants and their methods. and it had to be HUGE, to justify the current adventurism.

But fling!, just blowing up the WTC with explosives does fit the Muslim terrorist profile, because they tried to do just that in 1993, remember? Had they been successful, they would have knocked down both towers in a matter of minutes and killed 16,000-18,000 people, because there would have been no time to evacuate. I submit that would count as “HUGE.”

Terrorists have also been known to fire missiles, so a missile attack on the Pentagon attack also easily fits the Muslim terror attack “frame.” So in my “insider attack” scenarios, the WTC attack would have been hugely more destructive, and both would have been far simpler: no fake hijackings to coordinate, and where did the plane that “supposedly” hit the Pentagon disappear to, anyway?

Don’t get me wrong, I do enjoy a good conspiracy theory. I like
participating in different perspectives on reality, but this one isn’t
one of them.

I like them too! But they are usually full of crap… No, there was no “inside job,” and the Freemasons don’t control the world either. But people have a need to feel scared and believe there are sinister groups trying to control all of us. As I stated earlier, it gives their pathetic grasp on reality some meaning and definition. Instead of people looking at conspiracy theory as a humorous form of fiction describing our reality, they buy into it hook, line, and sinker!!! What’s funny is these “Wingnuts” think they are right and were the dupes. It doesn’t matter what evidence is presented to them; they will find a way to fit it within their conspiratorial designs

Pentagon fired a missile at itself, making sure to hit the least valued section of their five-sided building

It is my impression that organizations have a difficult time keeping secrets. There is always someone who eventually decides to tell what they know. Granted an organization like the CIA would maintain a strict policy of secrecy within its ranks. But in the case of 9/11, there are just too many credible witnesses that refute the various conspiracy theories. I remember watching what was happening that day on television while the broadcast media reported on what was happening over Washington D.C., when the third hijacked plane crashed into the pentagon. According to one conspiracy theory a missile hit the pentagon, but the people the media interviewed say otherwise. Are these people who actually saw the plane crash into the pentagon in on the conspiracy too? That’s a lot of people to have control of even for the CIA or some other nebulous organization. Don’t get me wrong, I do enjoy a good conspiracy theory. I like participating in different perspectives on reality, but this one isn’t one of them.

I wasn’t sure how to get the orange bar and red font in the portion of the previous message, please advise thank you.

I saw “United 93″ a couple months back, and after the movie I made some postings to some message groups I’m in describing how heroic these people were and how much pain the victim’s families must have been in. I got so much “Hate” mail from countless “Wingnuts” telling me how stupid I was, and I didn’t see the forest through the trees. Consequently, I had to quit many of the groups because the people were so vile and detestable, so full of hate!

They all stick together in their paranoid “Hate America” countenance. My only reaction them to them is to ask, “why couldn’t the terrorists take out their whining, annoying selves instead?”

They must’ve changed their minds, because they did engage in a debate sponsored by Democracy Now with the two producers of Loose Change, the most popular piece of pro-conspiracy rhetoric.

Dammit! Brad Reagan indeed just let me know about that.

But my basic point still stands. They may talk to each other on Democracy Now but they talk passed each other. Of course, it was supposed to be a debate, I understand that. And sometimes one should reach a conclusion and stand by it, I understand that too. But we are encouraged by the “right v. left” punditocracy and political enviroment to think that we have to mock up a definite opinion on everything, when the fact is most of us are incompletely informed and lack expertise in many areas.

In the future, everybody will act like a politician for 15 minutes

Assuming some secret government faction wanted to fake a terror attack by blowing up the WTC with explosives and shooting a missile at the Pentagon, why bother with airline hijackings?

because! they had to frame it so it fits the profile of Middle Eastern militants and their methods. and it had to be HUGE, to justify the current adventurism.

intelligence was everywhere about al qaeda’s intent to use this method, so Cheney orchestrated accordingly.

i’m just sayin’ is all.

Assuming some secret government faction wanted to fake a terror attack by blowing up the WTC with explosives and shooting a missile at the Pentagon, why bother with airline hijackings? Why not just blow up the buildings and fire the missile and blame it on the terrorists? It would kill more people (because nobody would have time to evacuate from the WTC), there’s a lot less that could go wrong, and the conspiracy types would have a lot less to pick at. The totality of events simply makes no sense as an “inside job.”

This is the same problem I have with JFK conspiracies: assuming there was a vast conspiracy inside the government to kill him, why bother complicating things by hiring some unstable loon for a sniper attack, plus the other gunmen on the Grassy Knoll? Why not just slip poison into JFK’s morning coffee? They’re going to cover up the autopsy anyway, right? “Sudden heart attack, such a tragedy, nothing to see here.” Why rely on the marksmanship and future silence of a gang of gunmen? When I asked that of JFK conspiracy types on a BBS years ago, the only answer I got was: “They wanted to send a message.” Right: a secret government conspiracy that wants to kill a president can’t just do it in secret, they have create a large, complex plan to commit a murder in public to “send a message”? Sure, that makes sense….

Toby:
I figured I was guilty of stating misinformation that got filtered through to me by some Nut Job Sites. I’m glad that put-option occurence was properly understood. Like I said, Facts are Facts, and they are incontrovertible. Also, I was just stating some questions that remained unanswered in my head, but thank you Toby; they are now satisfactorily addressed. Indeed, coincidence! I is obvious we were attacked, plain and simple!

Fling:
I agree there are some extremely focused individuals in our government who might be able to pull this off. However, the logistical nightmare in trying to conduct such a widespread calamity would, seems to me, be very difficult, if not nearly impossible. My point is when too many incompetent people are involved in any edeavor it becomes a joke. And that is under the complete cloak of secrecy that must remain secret. I’m sorry, but I don’t buy it.

They must’ve changed their minds, because they did engage in a debate sponsored by Democracy Now with the two producers of Loose Change, the most popular piece of pro-conspiracy rhetoric.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/09/11/1345203

government “bureaucracy” is inept, that is true. that doesn’t mean there aren’t highly focused, highly competent, very powerful factions within the government, acting on their own agendas, and doing so very well.

just look at the stuff the US “government” has gotten away with in the past. then think of how intelligent and driven Dick Cheney is.

it’s plausible, is all i’m saying.

“A single U.S.-based institutional investor with no conceivable ties to al Qaeda purchased 95 percent of the UAL puts on September 6 as part of a trading strategy that also included buying 115,000 shares of American on September 10…

Similarly, much of the seemingly suspicious trading in American on September 10th was traced to a specific U.S.-based options trading newsletter, faxed to its subscribers on Sunday, September 9, which recommended these trades”.

I don’t recall actually finding any corroborating reports that indicate that 9/11 wargames involved crashing jetliners into buildings. One such exercise is referenced in the Vanity Fair “NORAD tapes” article:

The day’s exercise was designed to run a range of scenarios, including a “traditional” simulated hijack in which politically motivated perpetrators commandeer an aircraft, land on a Cuba-like island, and seek asylum.

But military and security operations being what they are, all manner of organizations across the country could have and probably were running all sorts of exercises and war games, and if one of them involved an “airliner crashing into a building,” you still have to accept that there is room for coincidence on any day of the week.

If you’re after the complete truth, you never close the deal on any hypothesis, are always open to new truth, and are willing to update your theory, despite how much the facts sets you back. But these morons are not operating with such impeccable qualities. No matter how much you smear their face in the fact that we were attacked by a group of fanatical religious zealots willing to die for their beliefs, they can never see the facts in bold letters staring them in the face. Wait, if you think about it, the conspiracy theorists and the terrorists are very similar cognitively, they both are allowing fantasy to dictate their reality. Face the facts folks, 9-11 actually happened very similar to the official story! Deal with it!

Sure, there are some questions I have that remain unanswered, for instance the 600% increase in put-options on American and United Airlines three days prior. A put-option, for anyone interested, is basically a bet that the prices are going to fall through the floor, and you are locking into a higher selling price. Also, we were running War games the morning of 9-11-2001 simulating a jetliner crashing into one of our buildings. However, when looking at all the facts, it is obvious these conspiracies don’t hold any water. We were attacked, plain and simple!

People find believing in such a preposterous yarn gives meaning to their pathetic existence, and it gives them a myth to deal with their disintegrating reality which is coming unglued at the seams. It gives them a handle onto this chaotic existence, which to them is, obviously, overwhelming. And before everyone jumps on me, this is no right-wing spin, for I believe both wings of this pathological bird are screwed. As I think a song goes, “I ain’t no right winger; I ain’t no left-winger; I’m the middle finger!”?