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	<title>Comments on: Death? No, Thank You</title>
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	<link>http://www.10zenmonkeys.com/2006/09/21/death-no-thank-you/</link>
	<description>Your source for technology culture, internet phenomena, politics, interviews and entertainment</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 07:00:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: ab3nd</title>
		<link>http://www.10zenmonkeys.com/2006/09/21/death-no-thank-you/#comment-13582</link>
		<dc:creator>ab3nd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2007 20:27:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.10zenmonkeys.com/?p=8#comment-13582</guid>
		<description>"The terminal error that he (and much brighter folks like Ray Kurzweil) make is that metabolism is a monumentally complex, interactive, nonlinear system and — this is the important part — we don’t have a clue as to how much of it works."

The terminal error of the germ theory of disease is that we don't have a clue as to how much of it works.

The terminal error of electricity is that we don't have a clue is as to how much of it works.

The terminal error of flintknapping is that we don't have a clue as to how much of it works. 

The only terminal error is the assumption that humanity cannot advance by increasing the area of our understanding. The entire legacy of technological development is developing an understanding of areas that we previously didn't "have a clue" about. The fact that you posted that from an internet-connected computer instead of hooting it from primeval shrubbery argues against the premise of the post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The terminal error that he (and much brighter folks like Ray Kurzweil) make is that metabolism is a monumentally complex, interactive, nonlinear system and — this is the important part — we don’t have a clue as to how much of it works.&#8221;</p>
<p>The terminal error of the germ theory of disease is that we don&#8217;t have a clue as to how much of it works.</p>
<p>The terminal error of electricity is that we don&#8217;t have a clue is as to how much of it works.</p>
<p>The terminal error of flintknapping is that we don&#8217;t have a clue as to how much of it works. </p>
<p>The only terminal error is the assumption that humanity cannot advance by increasing the area of our understanding. The entire legacy of technological development is developing an understanding of areas that we previously didn&#8217;t &#8220;have a clue&#8221; about. The fact that you posted that from an internet-connected computer instead of hooting it from primeval shrubbery argues against the premise of the post.</p>
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		<title>By: mrskin</title>
		<link>http://www.10zenmonkeys.com/2006/09/21/death-no-thank-you/#comment-188</link>
		<dc:creator>mrskin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Oct 2006 06:28:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.10zenmonkeys.com/?p=8#comment-188</guid>
		<description>Looks Michael is doing well so far having Parkinson.  When I first heard he had the disease, I thought he'd be dead in a few years.  Glad to hear he still kicking and making a difference in the world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looks Michael is doing well so far having Parkinson.  When I first heard he had the disease, I thought he&#8217;d be dead in a few years.  Glad to hear he still kicking and making a difference in the world.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://www.10zenmonkeys.com/2006/09/21/death-no-thank-you/#comment-105</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Sep 2006 15:37:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.10zenmonkeys.com/?p=8#comment-105</guid>
		<description>Funny you should bring up Michael J. Fox and Christopher Reeve; I've addressed the issue of stem cell research in regards to their cases twice on my own blog:

&lt;a href="http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&#38;friendID=2248982&#38;blogID=151061163&#38;Mytoken=614DD4A3-AC4A-440C-B69FB9257FE4E8EC14638561" rel="nofollow"&gt;Celebrity Skin Cells&lt;/a&gt;
&lt;a&gt;Hold all my calls, Miss Tessmacher&lt;/a&gt;

And if I can use the issue to tar the incumbent administration, so much the better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny you should bring up Michael J. Fox and Christopher Reeve; I&#8217;ve addressed the issue of stem cell research in regards to their cases twice on my own blog:</p>
<p><a href="http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&amp;friendID=2248982&amp;blogID=151061163&amp;Mytoken=614DD4A3-AC4A-440C-B69FB9257FE4E8EC14638561" rel="nofollow">Celebrity Skin Cells</a><br />
<a>Hold all my calls, Miss Tessmacher</a></p>
<p>And if I can use the issue to tar the incumbent administration, so much the better.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan H Goldstein</title>
		<link>http://www.10zenmonkeys.com/2006/09/21/death-no-thank-you/#comment-84</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan H Goldstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 19:47:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.10zenmonkeys.com/?p=8#comment-84</guid>
		<description>Aubrey de Grey is as clueless about cell biology as he is about  shaving.  He is a walking incarnation of the classic logical  fallicy of reasoning from specific to universal. 

His argument in a nutshell (pun intended), is that since there is  no reason why every cellular component can't be renewed and  replaced, there is no reason why the entire organism cannot be  maintained forever. 

The terminal error that he (and much brighter folks like Ray  Kurzweil) make is that metabolism is a monumentally complex,  interactive, nonlinear system and -- this is the important part --  we don't have a clue as to how much of it works.  Of equal  importance, the difficulty of reverse engineering the living cell  is much, much greater than people like de Grey and Kurzweil are  willing to admit (or perhaps truly don't realize).  This is   because the cell was never engineered in the first place, it was  evolved by random variation followed by natural selection.  As a  result, many of the interconnections between the cell functions  these folks plan to reverse-engineer are not 'logical' in the way  that the human mind is logical. 

Laurie Anderson has a line in a song that goes:  "Paradise is  exactly like where you are right now... only much, much better."  I  don't know if she originated that quote, but I am sure she gets the  irony. 

The double irony that folks like de Grey and Kurzweil absolutely do  not get is that  - by the time 'we' have the technology to achieve  immortality, 'we' won't be 'us' anymore.  Much nearer term advances  in nanobiotechnology and bioengineering, which I have written about  for the last few years, will insure that whatever it is that  finally achieves immortality, 

it won't be like us 
see like us 
or watch TV like us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aubrey de Grey is as clueless about cell biology as he is about  shaving.  He is a walking incarnation of the classic logical  fallicy of reasoning from specific to universal. </p>
<p>His argument in a nutshell (pun intended), is that since there is  no reason why every cellular component can&#8217;t be renewed and  replaced, there is no reason why the entire organism cannot be  maintained forever. </p>
<p>The terminal error that he (and much brighter folks like Ray  Kurzweil) make is that metabolism is a monumentally complex,  interactive, nonlinear system and &#8212; this is the important part &#8212;  we don&#8217;t have a clue as to how much of it works.  Of equal  importance, the difficulty of reverse engineering the living cell  is much, much greater than people like de Grey and Kurzweil are  willing to admit (or perhaps truly don&#8217;t realize).  This is   because the cell was never engineered in the first place, it was  evolved by random variation followed by natural selection.  As a  result, many of the interconnections between the cell functions  these folks plan to reverse-engineer are not &#8216;logical&#8217; in the way  that the human mind is logical. </p>
<p>Laurie Anderson has a line in a song that goes:  &#8220;Paradise is  exactly like where you are right now&#8230; only much, much better.&#8221;  I  don&#8217;t know if she originated that quote, but I am sure she gets the  irony. </p>
<p>The double irony that folks like de Grey and Kurzweil absolutely do  not get is that  - by the time &#8216;we&#8217; have the technology to achieve  immortality, &#8216;we&#8217; won&#8217;t be &#8216;us&#8217; anymore.  Much nearer term advances  in nanobiotechnology and bioengineering, which I have written about  for the last few years, will insure that whatever it is that  finally achieves immortality, </p>
<p>it won&#8217;t be like us<br />
see like us<br />
or watch TV like us.</p>
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		<title>By: Natasha Vita-More</title>
		<link>http://www.10zenmonkeys.com/2006/09/21/death-no-thank-you/#comment-83</link>
		<dc:creator>Natasha Vita-More</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 14:39:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.10zenmonkeys.com/?p=8#comment-83</guid>
		<description>Max More's column for the Cryonics magazine has addressed this issue. Articles such as  "Meaning and Mortality" written in 1991 http://www.maxmore.com/meaning.htm; also,  "Hyperagency vs. Humility: The Art of Living with out Limits" essay.  A current essay is "The Psychology of Forever," which is not published yet.

Adjacent to the transhumanist community, Alan Harrington's book The Immortalist" is worth reading.  Gore Vidal said that it is "the most important book of our time."  (Great Britain: Panther Books Ltd, 1973)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Max More&#8217;s column for the Cryonics magazine has addressed this issue. Articles such as  &#8220;Meaning and Mortality&#8221; written in 1991 <a href="http://www.maxmore.com/meaning.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.maxmore.com/meaning.htm</a>; also,  &#8220;Hyperagency vs. Humility: The Art of Living with out Limits&#8221; essay.  A current essay is &#8220;The Psychology of Forever,&#8221; which is not published yet.</p>
<p>Adjacent to the transhumanist community, Alan Harrington&#8217;s book The Immortalist&#8221; is worth reading.  Gore Vidal said that it is &#8220;the most important book of our time.&#8221;  (Great Britain: Panther Books Ltd, 1973)</p>
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		<title>By: fling!</title>
		<link>http://www.10zenmonkeys.com/2006/09/21/death-no-thank-you/#comment-82</link>
		<dc:creator>fling!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 06:01:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.10zenmonkeys.com/?p=8#comment-82</guid>
		<description>Natasha, do you know if anyone in the transhumanist community has done any thinking about the psychological issues of removing mortality and fear of death from the human equation?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Natasha, do you know if anyone in the transhumanist community has done any thinking about the psychological issues of removing mortality and fear of death from the human equation?</p>
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		<title>By: Natasha Vita-More</title>
		<link>http://www.10zenmonkeys.com/2006/09/21/death-no-thank-you/#comment-80</link>
		<dc:creator>Natasha Vita-More</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 01:49:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.10zenmonkeys.com/?p=8#comment-80</guid>
		<description>To actively bring about fairness each person must be ready and willing to join those of us who are ardently pursuing superlongevity.  That means being prepared.  And it does no necessarily take money to be prepared; it takes doing our best to be healthy, getting as many ducks as we can in a row, and perpetually reading up on the future.   Self-responsibility is essential for all of us as we head into the future together.

It is true, as many of us transhumanist futurists have stated over the years, that the cost of the sciences and technologies for developing life extension will come down due to market demand over the coming years, but we do need to be thinking about those who (1) do not have access to information to gain knowledge about living longer; and (2) how to pursue cost-effective means for aggressively bringing the price down rather than waiting for the consumer market to drive it down.

Natasha Vita-More</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To actively bring about fairness each person must be ready and willing to join those of us who are ardently pursuing superlongevity.  That means being prepared.  And it does no necessarily take money to be prepared; it takes doing our best to be healthy, getting as many ducks as we can in a row, and perpetually reading up on the future.   Self-responsibility is essential for all of us as we head into the future together.</p>
<p>It is true, as many of us transhumanist futurists have stated over the years, that the cost of the sciences and technologies for developing life extension will come down due to market demand over the coming years, but we do need to be thinking about those who (1) do not have access to information to gain knowledge about living longer; and (2) how to pursue cost-effective means for aggressively bringing the price down rather than waiting for the consumer market to drive it down.</p>
<p>Natasha Vita-More</p>
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